Today we have a very honorable guest. Yes, we have our YB Rafi Rami. IT IS YOUR MORAL duty to come down TO REMOVE A KA REGION. Abaki has been weaponized against Amno. If there is uh anything that AMO is not happy that AMO may reconsider support for Anoa Ibrahim, the next thing you know some people from Amno will be arrested in the last one week. You heard about investigations into the agreement with ARM MCC, you know, just because it so happened a lot of those economic plans were designed by me. The same narrative that had attracted investors now are being politicized. I am very selective. I don't like stupid politicians. I'm sorry. I think PKR and myself has parted ways and uh PKR in its current form um no longer represent what people like me feel about how Malaysia, how the politic should be.
How would you describe your relationship with title straight Any? So are you leaving PK? I mean well I think I would like to keep everyone guessing because otherwise you won't call me into your podcast. I don't think anyone wants to use the word reform anymore. But about being too idealistic again, I think is an excuse.
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Hi,
welcome to VB Network channel. Today we are speaking in English because yeah, we have a very honorable guest. Please use your like button to welcome. We have our previous minister of economic YB Rafi Rami.
Yeah, thank you very much. I can try to speak in Mandarin but nobody will understand after uh the latest video.
All right. So, what have you picked up to lately?
Yeah, after resignation have things got better like a lot more time. I'm trying to grow back my hair. Oh, does it work? Uh, I would like to convince myself that it's working, but apparently will take about 1 year. So, we'll see within one year.
I'm also working hard on it.
Maybe resignation is good. Helps.
All right. So, yeah. But why are you resigning like so direct? A lot of parties like fights a lot for a minister post and you get it but you just give it up. So simple just like that like why?
No because you have to follow a certain standard and principle you know we follow you say it in Malaysia.
Yeah that's a problem in Malaysia you know. Um so unlike we working in the corporate sector or private sector you know when you get hired then you do your work and then you either get promoted or you change job. In politics is slightly different because when you get appointed to become a minister it is on the basis of your party position is because your party members appointed you and elect you to bring your voice to the government.
So when you no longer have a party position, you're just an ordinary member, it's very dangerous if you continue to become minister because it means that you cannot speak out your mind because you are beholden to the prime minister who still appoint you even though you don't have any party position. So we have to um put that culture back in Malaysian politics.
But I think you still have the mandate from people, right? Yeah. But the mandate from the people is as an MP, not as a minister. Uh appointment, people cannot vote you to become a minister. People vote you to become an MP, but your appointment to the government as a minister is basically out of your party position.
What what is the actual difference when you don't have the mandate from a party like you you cannot speak up or you cannot because you are well even if you are um uh party leader you know you still have to abide to some decorum and also uh collective responsibility of the cabinet. But you know within the cabinet you have about 30 ministers and ministers go by seniority.
The more senior you are the more you should be able to push for what you want to do what you want to change.
Um, if you don't have a party position, >> you don't have any cloud >> for you to be able to do anything to change anything or to speak out, >> you must have the respect of your other cabinet members. But if you're just an appointee, um, you know, nobody is going to listen to you. So you will be stuck between trying to do what you think the public wants but not being able to carry it out in government because people feel that who are you? You are nobody. So um, it is better to give that position to people with the mandate so that they can get a better chance of carrying out what they want to do. It's very hard for us to imagine because I think we have some minister not even winning the election or so you >> so but they do their works right so >> your name one >> they all know yeah >> yeah, but there is a problem >> there is a problem and so you know people always say that the problem with politicians is that they will cling on to their position. So their master is no longer the voters. Their master is the prime minister. >> So I don't want to perpetuate that.
So what policy do you want to push but you feel uh very hard? >> Is there any like any obstacle that you meet that make you feel that way?
No, I I I feel that um, there have always been some differences of opinion with Anoir. You know, >> it begins for example with the political culture first and foremost. >> Um if you want to change the country, we must change the political culture. >> And that means that putting the right people at the right place and leave them to do their job. The marriage must be so important you know um >> but uh, people say I'm not a good politician because politicians basically will try to make everyone happy >> and is all about giving crumbs to everyone. So from the very beginning you see that a lot of people either they have lost election >> or they don't necessarily carry any much expertise to the government but they will be given position just to make everyone happy. M >> that is a continuation of um, previous practices >> and now we are seeing the problem especially with um MECA >> uh because there was a sudden change on the part of Dr. Sri Ana Ibrahim you know >> um I think the majority of us feel that he should be removed >> uh Dr. Anoa from the very beginning in 2022 have made that call for him to be removed. >> Uh but the moment you become prime minister then you know so long as you follow what I want you to do then you are my guy. >> So that's a big um prop even before you go into the difference in policy details. Uh is like if you are a parent >> um, even before going to your uh child's home world you must make sure that he knows the right values you know working hard discipline and so on so I think the first crunch, the first uh crack so to speak >> is basically the different style of looking at things and obviously >> you know, the issue of Azamaki, the issue of Tatus Anoa has not been able to answer satisfactory allegations about his former political secretary Faraj. How do you explain someone becoming millionaires to the tunes of hundreds of millions controlling many companies in the space of one year and some of these companies end up getting contracts you know >> um there's also this big issue >> about um, being loyal to our core supporters >> because the ones uh that had put This government, this partying government is basically the urban, middle class, semi-urban, multi-racial voters. Of course we have to deal with the non-mal, the so-al, the rural males you know the PS, brasatu sometimes the amno you know >> but um, we must maintain that mandate that we are in this government because of this core vaters and I think uh, a lot of uh difference of opinion stem from these two or three core issues. >> I see.
Do you think the differences start only after Tat Anoa become the prime minister? Because uh since we are very young so we already heard that Rafi is the politician who have the strongest principle, that's why this is not the first time you walk away from policy. Yeah.
Yeah. Last time. >> Yeah. And then second time. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Probably third time. >> Is it? >> And then afterwards you come back. So uh it's a very good news from the people I think. So we thought that you already figure out like everything >> how to inside the cabinet, how to waste and stuff but after getting elected in not even one terms then >> you submit your resignation again. So like how does it happen so fast? I think it the difference in uh culture of leadership >> um you know the boundaries that I put compared to what extent that is willing to compromise some issues. I think that was known.
For example, 2019 when I >> uh walked out of politics, a lot of it revolve around the same issues basically >> uh the people around him. You know, I already pointed out that having someone like Far Haj um being so influential in his circle is going to be dangerous especially if he were to become prime minister.
Now um whether or not this has been sorted out before actually you can never tell how a person is until he or she becomes that person.
Uh but you and I might want to be a Hollywood actor. You know we can say that oh we will be like this and like that. We have some ideas about how things will be.
Uh but you will never know until you are there. And I think the case uh with Anoa Ibrahim for a lot of us um >> after 20 uh 2020 after Sheran move you >> um PKR went through a series of election losses >> so the party members um Dr. Sri Anan Riza came and basically asked me to come back you know >> and I think in that six seven months throughout the campaign before he became the prime minister um he played his cut well he allowed us to dictate a lot of things >> so that's why you notice going into that 2022 election >> picar campaigns was basically run by the younger ones the candidates were younger the party leadership, the members elected uh a set of young leaders.
Uh but for the party made that decisive um um voting decision that >> the party leadership that went into 2022 general election was basically a fresh new face. Most of us who were young >> I was the oldest already at my age. The rest you know Nit Nazmi Lang they're all young you know he restrained himself from disagreeing too much >> but of course it once you become prime minister then you don't need to have the party anymore because you have um the whole government at your disposal, you have the whole senior civil servants you have the enforcement agencies you have MACC.
So within a few months it was very obvious that the start has changed. The party was relegated.
Uh is the government he intend to govern with the civil service not so much taking uh input from the party? Yeah.
But some people might say that if you become the prime minister, you have to compromise with something like because you don't have enough numbers to form your own government. M.
So is it just like he's compromising? And that's why you have to me you draw a line between decisions that require political support. Okay.
with basically culture of leadership that you said because those are not political decisions >> like MCC >> like MCC for example like uh uh uh the way government is run >> um AMNO cannot say >> I don't like that person I don't like this these are prime minister's appointments >> who who he appoint as the chief secretary to the government who he appoints as uh chief treasury, >> who he appoints as chief commissioner. These are all prime minister's appointment >> and the public's day-to-day uh interaction with the government is usually through government agencies >> because at the cabinet level uh those are all policy decisions. The implementation is done by government agencies and government agencies the head of these agencies are civil servants >> and they only answer to the prime minister you know >> and they follow the way prime minister wants it to be >> so that's why it goes back to what I say if he has decided to be very strict >> anyone that is incompetent out >> anyone with allegations of corruption out >> uh he doesn't need to get unknown basically to agree to that you know >> it's not a political >> it's not a political decision so that's why I feel that this whole argument that this is not a >> um PH government >> this is a unity government and therefore reform must be slow I think it's an excuse >> I feel in the beginning I have to put up with it >> uh but as we went along it was quite obvious a lot of it was within the hands of the prime minister >> and I think if you see even the AP is basically subtly communicating that >> that's why the pressure is on the prime minister you know the pressure is not really on AMO or other parties because a lot of the decision making is actually in the prime minister's hands >> no also don't like Azamaki right >> doesn't always invest being their leaders and >> I think AMNO would agree with us that Azambaki has been weaponized against AMNO. >> So if there is uh anything that AMO is not happy >> or if there is news that AMO may reconsider support for Anoa Ibrahim the next thing you know some people from AMNO will be arrested or investigated by MAC. So you know um this issue about MECC and Azambaki is a perfect example that it is actually in the hands of the prime minister >> then why he want to do that >> I have a question that less professional uh how would you describe your relationship with tal him do you see him as a boss or a friend like can't you ask him during mama time like can you text him like why why you like him so much >> can you text him like that one Um I think that's also um the uh fault line that has brought uh myself and himself to this point. >> Um the Anoa came from >> Amno. >> He spent 16 years in Amno. Yeah. >> And I think the old political culture cemented in his time in Amno is that everyone is a subordinate and please kiss my hand. No, >> you know, I'm the boss. You do what I tell you, you know. >> Um, but PKR was very different when it first came to the scene. >> Um, basically is a social movement. A lot of us were not politicians. >> I was a technocrat, you know, I was an engineer and accountant, you know. uh but we felt that we needed to come forward and um do our bit for the country and that includes fighting for his release because we felt that it was >> um unjust what it was done to him. >> So as we all rose in the party we do not see each other as beholden to each other. Oh >> there's no bonds there's no subordinate basically I should be judged >> for the merit of the work that I do >> and also for the idea you know >> um and that's how I see him as a person >> I don't kiss his hand I don't >> see him as a boss >> especially in the party when he is the president and I was the deputy president >> I was elected by overwhelming support >> by the uh party members in 2022. >> So I have my own mandate >> and my mandate is to speak up on certain issues or take certain positions the way that the party grassroots wanted it to be, you know.
Uh, but of course, I think initially he over the years I think um, he tolerated you know, that relationship between me and him because I have always been direct. Sometimes he felt that I was too harsh on him because I say what I needed to say, and I think in Malay political culture that is quite difficult, you know. Um, but he tolerated me um before he became prime minister because I I suppose you know, he needed everyone to be running around to get the support. Yeah. Uh, that became uh it was obvious that um, um, he wanted a different kind of relationship after he became prime minister. Uh, so the gap gets bigger and bigger, and now he is surrounded by so many other people especially the senior civil servants. Uh, of course there's always this complaint that Rafi does not respect you as a prime minister because the way he talks to you, the way he communicates with you. So um, in that sense, you know, the relationship uh changed um drastically after he becomes a prime minister.
M., So, are you leaving PK? I mean, you answer that not until the end of this tour, right? Well, I think I would like to keep everyone guessing. Oh, okay. Because otherwise you won't call me into your podcast. You know, if I tell everything in advance, then, you know, there's no story to tell. But but but uh, uh on a serious note, um, the political scene in Malaysia is uh changing and evolving very fast in the next few months. Um, but I've said it very clear that I don't intend to stand on PKR's ticket in the next general election. So that is very clear. I it's very clear to me that um, I think PKR and myself has parted ways, and uh, PKR in its current form, um, no longer represent what people like me, uh, feel about how Malaysia, how the politic should be.
Yeah, ch. Profit loss balance sheet cash flow statement live chat. Support. Do you think this change happens after the like last election, after an become the prime minister as well because you were once the deputy president of the party so it shouldn't be that way where under your leadership the party already drive into a different part from you right? The so-called confirmation that he has become a different creature was last year's party election. Uh, there has always been difference of opinion you know all the way during a time or even before that you know uh, the we have difference of uh opinions in strategies and policies you know um, and within PKR it's broad spectrum. There are people like me who are considered, um, less traditional sometimes too radical in the way I look at things. You have on the end of the road for example, in the past we have Azin Ali, who's as good as, and I'm no politician you know so of course there has always been difference of opinion but uh, difference of opinion is good for any party yes, but what determines or differentiate a party from a good one from a bad one is the culture okay, how uh, the party tolerates difference of opinion more so how a party draws very strong lines against bad political culture money politics abuse of power cheating you know uh, character assassination uh and uh because the moment you allow this culture to grow in a party you attract the bad people into the party, these are all the people who want something out of the party, positions, money, tender, projects, you know, and the moment these people take position in the party, it sends a very bad signal to the rest, the good ones won't come. And from the last party election, the worst of the worst had happened. You know uh, there were allegations of massive fraud and cheatings that the party refused to investigate. Uh, people who voted in the party election never know actually whether their vote turn out exactly like what they key in. Oh, Dr.
Anoa refused till the end to allow audit into the digital ballot box, > to check that if I vote for you, uh what comes out is you because the suspicion is that irrespective of what who I vote for the result has been decided you know >> so um I I feel that uh the political culture in PKR has stooped so low >> uh that Uh I don't think anyone will be able to reverse its cause because this has attracted so many bad apples. >> Well, I think you will receive accuse accusers another letter. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I've got I hope you guys don't get it. To them not to me. >> You're not the member of >> if you give a project then >> you are the best.
So would you like compete with against PKR next election? Um, I I feel that uh what the public needs now is option, > option. Uh and uh you know I've I've run surveys and data collection every month.
Since August or September last year, >> we noticed one, wow >> phenomenon that didn't exist before. >> Okay. >> Uh which we call disenfranchised voters, this illusion voters. >> Okay. And it cuts across um voters group, uh Malay, Chinese, Indian, uh Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, boomers.
So from month to month, we see more and more people that falls into this category. >> Uh what we do is that we ask people if there is a general election tomorrow, which party are you going to vote?
Okay. But instead of just the three main coalition PH, BN and PN, >> we also allow them to pick either one of the three categories, three new categories.
First category is all the parties are the same. >> Oh,
second category is that I hate all these parties. >> Third category is I wish there is a new party that can represent my vision better.
I see. So what we see from August September last year all the way to the last one was January >> was that more and more people pick either one of those three answers.
So much so that uh for Chinese uh voting group and Indian voting group, that category is actually bigger >> than uh the first category. That means that more people say >> they are either they hate all the party or all the party are the same >> or they wish there is a new party.
The people who choose that option is actually bigger than people who say that I will vote either for PH, BN or PN.
So >> because of that I think we we are at an uncharted territory where voters wants uh politicians to do more and they want to have options. So it's um um basically a blank piece of paper.
So whatever the political design of the past you know which party stands in what seats either you go against PKR or DAP or PAS or AMO I think we are starting from scratch. whichever that we feel that we are able to put a candidate that can offer a good option to the voters in that constituency I think we should consider.
So can can I ask what is the result amongst the Malays >> result, Malays is the only voting group now >> that still uh has the majority voting for the main coalitions. Oh,
is 5248 >> when collision you mean unity?
I either either BN BN or PH >> and I think PN is about 21% >> uh BN is about 16% and PH is about 15%.
So in it's quite tight, total is about 52%. But the other 48% says actually I don't like any of this you know. So Malay is the only group where 52% still >> uh feel that they will vote for either one of the three coalition.
But Chinese and Indians has already swing the other way around, you like 60% or 70 or >> I think Chinese I think almost the reverse of that which is 5248 52 say that they will um I mean all the parties are the same only 48% will consider one of the three coalition Indian is the most severe. Indian is I think 5842 >> 58 say please give me another party So I don't like any of the existing party.
So but as you say at 48% from Malay it's actually quite high.
Y so since we always hearing about Rafi is leaving PKR, is there any other party or individual who come and approach you.
So hey, something exclusive, I know you want us to keep guessing but just a little hint. Yeah. I see this is the reality of Malaysian politics. You know when I resigned last year, it was almost a year then different groups and people started coming in. Uh but their interest then was only for me and uh people who think like me in PKR, the MPs, for us to withdraw support from the government and support them to become the government. So there's a lot of offers, minister of this, minister of that, you know. But because I was never interested, you know, I've always said that, you know, otherwise I shouldn't have resigned. It's quite stupid, isn't it? To resign and then just bring down the government and go back to become a minister, you know. After a few months, those offers and talks started slowing down. Um but people didn't take much interest in my view about politics uh and different parties and so on, because I think they feel that for the moment my value is only to bring down the government because I'm an MP and you know people know that I have some other MPs who think like me. Uh but when it comes to new political options, offering them to voters, they're not interested. This is quite sad to hear though if it's realistic. So we always heard some saying Rafi is too idealistic so really hard to cooperate with the and you can't survive in the real world of politics. What do you see this kind of accusation? Yeah. Do you think they are just too dirty or they have some point? I think that argument is an oxymoron. It's just doesn't jive, you know on one hand uh if people say that I'm too idealistic and therefore I will not survive in the real world politics, man, I've come up in politics very fast compared to other people actually true you know within a space of one decade you know I went from you know a chartered accountant hardly anyone knows to become a deputy president you know and I won by a very large margin on whatever I contested before in the party or you know so so on. On that, so to say that I will not survive politics, I'm still here you know after one year when people say ah after he resigned he's nobody I'm still here you know uh so so that clearly is not true. The part about being too idealistic again I think is an excuse. Um we cannot have a cake and eat it too. You cannot aspire for a better country, more meritocratic country. We cannot compete with better countries but want to do exactly the same thing. It's like you know you are fat and you want to have six-pack but you don't even want to walk. It doesn't work like that right. So if you want to have a better country, the culture has to change. Um and therefore we have to shift from politics of alliance and accommodations where compromise becomes the decisive enabler whether one person goes up or not. We need to run away from that to politics where there are red lines, there are principles, people know what you stand for, what you see is what you get and only then I think we can reset the political culture. Now a lot of why people feel that it's difficult to work with me. Um it's not so much because uh you know um I can't work with other people. I feel that sometimes it's because the standard that I operate is different. So it's like I don't tolerate money politics at all. Uh, and I think the moment you take money and the moment you try to go up by offering contracts, you know, then I might as well pack up and and go back to the corporate world because that was the very reason why a lot of us were in politics in the first place. We really hate that because it's not fair on people, you know.
And then there’s also the standard about uh marriage and hard work. M the problem with a lot of people in politics is that it’s a politics of kissing hands you know so you and you go and do as much work as possible I apool you I count on to you when you go up please consider me and I will support you but I don’t want to do any work that has to stop you know it’s like if you want to go far and have an impact um then you have to work hard, work hard in society think harder contribute more, speak up more, you know. Um, so I’ve been doing that for the last 10, 15 years. A lot of people will be more than happy if I allow them to count out to me. I say, “Come, come, come kiss my hands and I’ll make you you, you, I’ll put you all.” but that’s goes against everything that I stand for. To me, if you want to go up in politics, please work hard. You may be my biggest supporter. You love me but I can’t promote you if you don’t perform. You have to work hard. You need to have a certain intellectual capacity to become a minister to become an MP. You cannot come to me and say I’ve been your follower for the last 30 years. Please give me that position. Wow. You know, that’s perhaps the politics of Anoa Ibrahim that I disagree with. Because of that people say um you know it’s very difficult to work with him because he is very selective. He only picks his people. I pick people who are meritocratic who can do work who who are willing to slog it out in politics without resorting to money. And when they don’t resort to money, politics the only way for them to survive is by working hard. Not many people want to do that you know. Yes. Yeah, talking about works since you are the ex minister of economics. So, uh, do you think the plans have changed after you leaving? Do you have any commentary on the current situation of our economy? No, the plan has not changed at all. You know, that’s also another oxymoron of what is happening now. On the one hand, I think some people in the government try to paint uh as if that I fail either PU or even people say look Rafi is not around oh suddenly ringit goes up. Oh, you know there are people who say that is not around. Oh, our economy is doing well. If you look at the government’s um economic policy, none of it has changed. It has followed exactly what we set out in 2023 and 2024 barring last week’s US attack on Iran, you know, it creates some shocks in the market. But barring that um the market has responded well to the economic narrative and economic plan by and large a lot of what we set out to do per the economic plan is being transformed bits and pieces and the market responds to it. Hence you get the kind of economic performance. Now my concern are twofolds going forward. first is that if you notice as well there has not been any new economic announcements. Whatever that we have now is basically what my team and other ministries teams work on the economic plan in 2023 and 2024. We have not gotten any new plans, you know. So just like if you do business right take a simplest business you do FMB you sell coffee and T you know in the first six months when you roll out your new T people will be excited but if you stick to the same T for two years after a while people will feel I’m tired of this T I’ll find another cafe so the whole idea about getting Malaysia on the world’s map to attract investment to get the funds coming in is the ability to continuously showcase ourselves and to showcase ourselves is about plan and what we want to do next and then show that we have been able to transform some of the plans we have. I think the uh the excitement may go down in the next one or two years if we just stick to what the plans that we have come out in 2022 24 The last one was RMK 13, 2025. It’s a five-year plan, right? Yeah.
But same as start, you know, you cannot tell that I have 5 years worth of T. You have to really keep up, you know, and and uh RMK3 is a huge plan that consists of so many different plans. So you need to take one plan and translate one plan translate. So that's one of my big concern. The other concern is this. >> Um, a lot of the economic plans that attracted some attention in the past was started some of it by me, >> you know, on the energy transition, on the semiconductor, you know, you know, on new industry decarbonization, you know. >> Um, so when you first roll it out to the market, they will be interested. M >> then they want to see um whether the government is going to be able to pull it off, >> whether there's going to be focus, consistency. >> Now, since I've left, uh uh some people in the government have turned around and attacked the very same policy that had attracted investments. M >> so I think today and the last one week you heard about investigations into the agreement with ARM >> to design semiconductor >> the MCC >> yeah MCC you know and then there's another investigation into the project to build the largest um solar farm solar farm in in in Jooko you know >> so obviously the market feel that you know uh these are your policies. >> These are uh the government's policies. These are the policies that had attracted interest before. Are you going to sabotage your own policy because of politics? Now that you don't like him, you turn around and say these things um um were not properly done. Yet at the same time the government also going around saying that uh we are making headways because of this arrangement. So >> is almost saying that I'm pretty but you tear your shirt down you know. So invest investors don't like that. >> So that is also a risk to the government and to the country in the next few years. If the same narrative that had attracted investors in the last few years now are being politicized and weaponized >> just because it so happened a lot of those economic plans were designed by me >> then I I I think the investors say you know these people actually are cuckoo >> you know they they don't know what they want you know so uh uh if we are not able to come up with new plans uh continuously from time Okay. Or if you're not able to follow through on some of the existing plans, then the hype and the interest in Malaysian economy uh basically will slow down and people will choose to go somewhere else. >> Yeah. >> Cool. >> But never mind. We have the next election coming soon, right? >> Maybe. >> Will it be this year or next year? Uh >> I think it looks like more and more as we go week by week, >> it's looking like it's going to be this year. >> Oh, >> some people say that is as early as June. >> Wow. >> Some people say that is as early as and when I say some people, I mean people in these are not friends. These are some people in. So the words going around is that preparations are made um for election either in June >> or August, but the latest is most probably November this year. So it's going to be sooner rather than later. >> I hope you can >> Yeah. >> find a place to >> We want the third option, right? >> I better have a ship. But I think we should be able to to >> you know um give better clarity before June. >> Well, we have interviewed like some politicians. We believe everyone who join politics they have like something that they want like some maybe they want the power, some might want the like they want their legacy and stuff. I mean uh what is your pursuit in your political journey? M >> cuz you walk away too easily.
So it make us very confused like, actually what is the things that always supported you in this journey? I think the main difference between myself and a lot of other ministers or politicians – because I don't you know I I I don't pay my life through my job in politics – you know so I uh I'm not rich but I was very stingy – so it's like I don't I don't live beyond my means and then when I was young in the corporate, you know, I save enough um you know for for later days you know so – um I do not have um as much financial needs like other politicians so because of that – whether I'm a minister or not it doesn't really make that much difference to me financially so that that is a big difference – um it's like I suppose you guys do podcast as well, you There's a bit difference and I do podcast as well. – There's a big difference between clocking 8:00 in the morning every day day in day out then actually working on your own things because that freedom that financial freedom – is not necessarily reach but you feel that you have the freedom. So I have that freedom you know. M so when I have that freedom, um I do not see myself as some other politicians do. I I don't think that I'm such a big person that I will change the country. I don't think so.
Was it?
Have you ever dream of being prime minister of Malaysia? Russian. Be careful.
You see, I don't receive another lettering. I I don't to be frank. I I don't uh dream of of uh becoming a prime minister. That has never been my obsession. Why not – a minister of prime minister? Because it goes back to what I said – because I don't think that any one person can change society. Mhm.
And in fact, I think if Malaysians think that we have to rely on this messiah, that great leader and so on to make things better for us, we are in trouble, you know. Uh so any one of us even in my position if I become minister if I become a senior politician – the best that I could do is to add my expertise and my contribution – to the body of knowledge and to the body of politics in Malaysia so that the – younger generation can be better.
So there are two or three things that I my pet hate about politics in Malaysia growing up you know – I hate stupid politicians – because I feel like it's an insult as you know I mean you hate 99% of – because you know it's like you know – we go to university, we do our work you know and suddenly you end up watching it's like this is the kind of things they talk to you is an insult of intelligence So I hate that you know and that's something that I wish I can contribute to change going forward.
The other thing that I hate is this kowo culture and and money politics. I hate this uh culture where uh when someone in politics, they really think they are big you know it's like you know you need to have outr riders going around you can no longer walk on your own you must have 10 people surrounding you carry your I hate that cuz I feel like it's such a waste of efforts and time if you can carry your own book then that 10 people can actually do a lot more things is a lot more productive again there's culture you know so um I I I don't set my objective in terms of either you become minister or you become prime minister because I think you can become minister or prime minister but – most probably you don't change things – unless you change – the culture and the way we do things you know so um and I've been quite consistent – in the last two decades when it comes to politics – I am very selective. I don't like stupid politicians. I'm sorry.
I prefer people who are smart, who are intellectual, who are willing to do hard work. That helps the first objective which is I we we need to get rid of stupid politicians. Yeah.
The second bit is no money politics, no cow, uh no corruption and politicians are professional.
again, that's how the way I carry myself, the way I develop younger politicians around me now. If I'm able to do this >> for the next 10 years, and there are many more people who are like that >> actually to me you know, I've done my contribution to Malaysian politics >> um and uh, I will be more than happy to be frank if I'm able to do that >> you know from people is very happy to hear from you like this. But it's very sad for us to hear from you like this as well. Because like a boss who wants a staff, a staff who can keep working is a staff that wants something. So if he only works for passion, he can walk away so simple. So as people like for people the same also. So like if you only work for passion or you only go for the idealistic ideology that you want, you can walk off so easily. So >> yeah but then again, but then again >> you and I run companies right? You know >> um >> which one is better for you to uh build a better company? Is it when you offer perks and salary and you have to continuously compete on that >> and the kind of stuff that you get >> you get good stuff >> but the attrition is very high as well. Every now and then, you know, you can never compete with the money or perks offered by other companies. So that's one model you know which is if you make >> uh materialistic objective as a key differentiator. The other is a company where you accept people as they are. You give the environment for them to drive as much as possible. When they walk out, they walk out. But people know that is a good place to be and you attract continuously passionately good people coming. I rather to have the second one, you know. I rather to have more young good politicians in the future. Um so that any one of us can come and go. Uh but as a country we don't suffer because you are spoiled for choice. Every time you have 10 15 good politicians to select >> from one rather than having one good politician who can perform that eventually, the power gets to his head and he thinks that the country owes him a living. So I I I you know >> we hope that way. Why do you I I know you hate the stupid politician but then like, who is the smart one? Who is the one you will meet your standard? >> Yeah, your standard like can you comment on the others like other party >> any anyone? >> Is it size or Kylie? >> I don't think so. >> You don't think so? >> Okay. How about DF who you like? No, no. I I I I say that uh um, I think Luke is competent. >> Luke is definitely a lot more competent than Anthony L is competent. You know, uh there are some other uh um competent >> um >> very hard to think. Very hard to think. You know, um let's let's say uh from among the backbenches MP you know, Wongchen is >> yeah you know he knows his stuff. He's actually very hardworking. He puts himself out there. He does a lot more constituency work than I do for example, you know, meeting people so Wongen is >> um the kind of people that I like to have around me because >> um but then again, people say that I'm biased now because we come from the same background in the sense that we are corporate people. He was a corporate lawyer. We came into politics after we spent 15 20 years at work. You know, we were not full-time politicians. Uh but you know to me those are the kind of people uh that I wish to see more in politics because they bring something to politics you know >> it's not like uh they leave school and suddenly they want to become politician. They have never saw any nasi lama you know okay, see that's how I still want to I think one day. So there are also people like Chin Chong PJ. >> Okay. Pin Chong is is to me the kind of uh politicians >> that is so undervalued. Oh >> because you know he's doing his PhD. Uh he did electronics engineering. He spent his years doing political research um and as a policy researcher. He's been an art dude. Uh, he is now an MP.
So he's covered a vast area of work, um in my experience when you give any tasking to him it usually works. He's very thorough in his job. Unfortunately that's also the challenge in our society. Someone like Liin Chong may appear to be so bland to the public because he doesn't shout. He doesn't uh you know make controversial remarks. He doesn't give crazy drama. Uh but we need a good number of these kinds of politicians in the future because politics is actually about thinking. Politics is about finding solution. It's not about showmanship. It's not about performative politics, you know. So I've only come up with two so far. It's all your friends. It's all my friends. That's how we get along.
All right. All right. Thank you so much. Do you have any questions? Yeah, we are concerned about your family as well. Yeah. Are they doing good right now or? They they're good. They're good. Um but we have to change some of our routines. Uh so We don't go out as much. We hardly go out. Fact I think uh in the past at least every week we go out together uh for lunch for dinner you know because that's the only time I have uh But nowadays not anymore but once in 2 three months um and um and then we have to be especially my son and my wife you know Uh so but apart from that everything else. I think you know we try to make it as as normal as possible Yet you also know that the the risk always exists you know so you can you cannot downplay the risk. It's very shocking news for us because like in 2026 Malaysia things like this still happens but maybe you handle it relatively calm like you didn't Uh pointed at anybody or you didn't even like make a scene of it like So how do you keep this thing this way? I kind of know you know uh what the whole attack was all about. It was it was a warning to me. Um um whoever who planned and executed it wanted me to stop speaking out and um you know I have always maintained that is about politics and is about people who were not comfortable with my criticisms. Um and that's why I've said you know most probably is an inside job is is people you know around the power structure that is in this country you know so then you know my wife and I had to make a decision as a family uh Uh if we because what they want is for me to basically quit politics you know Um So but the problem, you know, if we do that, then basically you allow intimidation to decide. Uh But most Malaysians don't have that, you know, they have nowhere to go. Even if they go to authorities, it will take some time before it gets investigated. So, they live in fear.
M so you know when the attack happened to my son I think a lot of Malaysians understand that it was a form of intimidation And if my response is to um succumb to the intimidation uh I don't think it's the message that I want to send to the rest of Malaysians. I mean it's very important for people to feel that we have to deal with this every day you know the right thing to do is to stand up against it and if a senior politicians like me basically say I give up you know then then uh what hope there is for other people. So I think my wife and I feel that okay we have to be a bit more careful Uh but uh giving what they want is the last thing that we should do. So I think you are a real fighter. Yes. I don't know. I don't know. A lot of people are saying the reform already reformat.
We hope that you can continue it. > I don't think anyone wants to use the word reform anymore. > Oh, so we come up with a new one. > I think we have to come up with a new
on your mind. > Not yet. Not yet. But I think now reform is a dirty word.
I think you guys are younger, you know, as a generation, right? > Imagine my generation. We are now crossing 50, right? So we've been doing this since we were 21, 22 years. > There's a bitter after taste to it.
You know, a lot of us actually went to the streets, some lost job. > Some people went to lockups. You know, they never get anything out of politics. You know, they it's is basically something that they felt it was the right thing to do. And all they ever ask is for Anah Ibraim and the government actually fix the problems in the country you know.
So when all this happens you know uh I think reform becomes very bitter to them. So I I don't think you can package reform anymore. Whatever you call it any
let's them comment like what the one name is resign > resign very sorry > all right thank you so much >> for coming >> guys do you have any comments or any question you want to ask why you can just uh leave your comments below >> and I will screenshot and send to him >> and don't leave stupid one she don't like the stupid one
stupid comments CAN STUPID POLITICIAN CANNOT > OKAY Leave a like and share and thank you so much Ry once again. I think I hope you can next ele election.
Yeah, we hope you can. > Thank you so much. All right. >> Thank you for coming. Yeah, that's all for today. Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. >> Once again, thank you Pu. > Dear bosses, if you're looking for accounting solution, please do not hesitate to click on the link and use our promo code for trial.
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